美球迷熱議小加嫂言論：數據在扼殺比賽，最重要的部分數據顯示不來

Marc Gasol: "Stats are killing basketball. This is a very subjective game, a lot of things happen that you can"t measure with stats. Very different details matter. The way I see basketball, the most important things don"t show up in statistics."

馬克-加索爾：「數據正在扼殺著比賽，籃球是一項非常主觀的運動，很多場上發生的事情你都無法用數據去衡量。很多不同的細節都對比賽結果非常重要。以我對籃球比賽的觀點來看，比賽中最重要的事情是不會在數據中體現出來的。

」

[–]Enigma512 2755 指標 12小時前

Makes a good point. Sometimes, you can"t see with stats how utterly shit some players are.

You have to see it with your own eyes.

很有道理，有時候光看數據你完全不知道這個球員究竟有多麼的差勁。

你必須要用自己的眼睛親自去看才行。

[–]Thunderballout337 131 指標 11小時前

Can"t score the basketball with a calculator!

畢竟你無法用計算器得分！

[–]76ersAthos19 637 指標 11小時前

Okafor

奧卡福。

[–]Cavaliersvoyaging 122 指標 8小時前

His advanced stats are abysmal anyway. His RPM is worst in the league last I checked.

奧卡福的高階數據本來就非常爛，他的真實正負值排在聯盟倒數第一，在上次我查看時。

[–]HeatShiny_metal_ass 53 指標 7小時前

He"s got a good offensive game. If he had any type of structure I think he could be decent. Also he"s young as fuck

但是奧卡福的進攻很棒啊，只要他得到任何系統性的培養我認為他會很棒。另外他也非常的年輕。

[–]76ersKingdariush 17 指標 4小時前

Not really, He"s not good on either side of the ball simply because he slows everything down on offense, and on defense he"s laughable

76人蜜：並不是這樣，他攻防兩端的表現都很差，因為他在進攻端會簡單的讓所有事情都慢下來，然後在防守端他簡直可笑。

[–]Warriors49_Giants 260 指標 12小時前

Who has great stats but is ultimately a shit player? Stats nearly perfectly correlate with who we all agree are the greats.

聯盟中誰有著出色的數據卻實際上是個很糟糕的球員呢？數據總是能與那些我們公認為很出色的球員對上號。

[–][OKC] Andre Robersonwhoami1984 47 指標 11小時前

Enes Kanter.

伊內斯-坎特。

[–]Knicksstoneyholiday 52 指標 11小時前

Carmelo.

安東尼。

[–]Kingsuptoolate712 999 指標 11小時前

I really hate to say this, and I would never say that he is shit, but... DeMarcus Cousins always has awesome stats, yet fails to help his team win. Stats can"t measure attitude and team chemistry.

國王蜜：我真的很不想這麼說，我也永遠不會說他是個垃圾，但是...考辛斯總是能拿到出色的數據，卻無法幫助球隊取得勝利。數據無法衡量態度和球隊的化學反應。

[–]Emteen 103 指標 10小時前

He actually has worse efficiency stats than I would have guessed for being considered the best offensive center in the league the last few years. People give him a pass because he"s had such high usage and played for such bad teams, but if you just look at his eFG, TS, WS/48, etc he really doesn"t look that great.

實際上作為過去幾年中人們認為的聯盟中進攻最好的中鋒，他的效率值比我想像中的要低得多。人們放過了他，因為他有著如此高的使用率同時處於如此爛的一支球隊中，但是如果你去看看他的有效投籃命中率，真實投籃命中率，每48分鐘的勝利貢獻值等等這些高階數據，他真的表現不太好。

[–]BullsChiefMyQueef 287 指標 11小時前

I hope that the Pelicans can do something with Boogie and AD. They are too good not to make something happen these next few years.

我希望在擁有考辛斯和安東尼-戴維斯的條件下鵜鶘能搞出些事情來，他們完全有能力在未來幾年內搞出點動靜。

[–]Buckstheconfuserx2 75 指標 10小時前

They just need one guy to make them a big 3

他們只是還需要一個球員來湊成三巨頭

[–]RaptorsDaPhoToss 62 指標 9小時前

CP3 to Pelicans

保羅去鵜鶘怎麼樣？

[–]76ersKungFuMosquito 64 指標 6小時前

As much as I like blake and DJ, they aint AD and cousins

雖然我很喜歡格里芬和小喬丹，但是他倆顯然不是戴維斯和考辛斯。

[–]JazzJuneFlyFrost 316 指標 11小時前

Wolves Kevin Love looked like one of the greatest PF of all time if you just look at his stats...

森林狼時期的樂福看上去就像歷史最偉大的大前鋒之一，如果你只看他的數據的話...

[–]Cavaliersspembert 279 指標 11小時前

Yeah, but he"s not shit though.

是的，但是他確實不是水貨。

[–]TheBlindSalesman 177 指標 11小時前

In fact he was quite great!! I remember when he was considered the best PF in the league above BG.

事實上他曾經真的非常厲害！！我記得他曾經被認為是聯盟中最好的大前鋒，排在格里芬之前。

[–]Cavalierstomastaz 62 指標 11小時前

Yeah if he could channel some of that back soon that"d be great

騎士蜜：是的，如果他能儘快找回一些那時的狀態就好了。

[–]Emteen 64 指標 10小時前

He just needs a lower back transplant and he should be good to go.

他只是需要恢復背部的健康就沒問題了。

[–]GeneralsROB_CASH 144 指標 11小時前

not quite sure what youre arguing since his last two healthy years with the wolves he absolutely was the best PF in the league

不知道你們在爭論什麼，因為在他最後兩個在森林狼健康的賽季里，他是毫無疑問的聯盟第一大前鋒。

[–]ClippersMetta_wool_fleece 92 指標 11小時前

The biggest Blake griffin fan here and it wasn"t even close. Klove was other worldly as first option on a bad team

格里芬最鐵杆的球迷在這裡，當時他倆的差距真的很大。樂福作為一支爛隊的第一選擇，簡直是來自另外一個星球的運動員。

[–]BullsBombast- 25 指標 8小時前

as first option on a bad team

Exactly the point of this discussion. When you are the center-piece of a team, you get all the stats. He didn"t magically become worse when he went to Cleveland, he got put in a position where he is no longer the one receiving all the stats on his own team. There is a "diminishing returns" of stats on a team.

There are so many players who went from superstars to just great players once they moved from their "big fish, little pond" situation.

作為爛隊的第一選擇

這正是討論的核心。當你是球隊的核心時，你就能拿到所有的這些數據。來到騎士後，他不是像變魔術般的突然就垃圾了，而是他被放在了一個不再像以前自己球隊那樣能夠得到所有數據的位置上。一支球隊中球員的個人數據是具有「收益遞減」效果的。

聯盟中有很多球員都從超級球星變成了普通的球星，一旦他們從原本「一家獨大」的位置離開後。

[–]Celtics0per 178 指標 11小時前

Marcus smart is the opposite. Bad stats but makes an unquestionable positive impact on the game.

斯馬特則剛好相反，數據糟糕，但是毫無疑問他對比賽有著積極的影響。

[–]MagicBig_Apple3AM 128 指標 11小時前*

I know I"m tooting Bill Simmons" horn here but he makes those winning plays in a game. Plays that really change the course of a game. A big steal in the middle of a run to keep bringing the team back, a charge taken to stop a run by the other team. Stats don"t value those players high enough.

Players like Larry Nance JR get the short end of the stick too. Good PnR defense, good cutting, hockey assists, boxing out, good screen setting, communication on D. All things he does well, but he"ll hardly get anything from it

我知道這麼說有點像比爾-西蒙斯的論調了，但是他確實在比賽中打出了關鍵的制勝表現，他的那些表現真的能改變比賽的走向。在對手起勢一波流的正中間完成一記大場面的搶斷，從而把球隊帶回到比賽中來，或者造成對手帶球撞人犯規從而中斷對手的攻勢。數據不能足夠的體現這些表現的價值。

[–][LAL] Kobe Bryantjames3129 1051 指標 12小時前

r/nba on suicide watch

看來要防止shh集體自殺了。

[–]Seven_Sayer 33 指標 10小時前

If he wins the championship, we can never talk about stats ever again.

如果他贏了總冠軍，我們就再也不能談論數據了。

[–]NetsAleksandrSokolov 918 指標 11小時前*

That"s because r/nba doesn"t actually watch basketball unless its a marquee game or playoffs.

因為shh里的人真正去看比賽的不多，除非是焦點之戰或是季後賽。

[–][LAL] Kobe Bryantjayz93j 214 指標 11小時前*

Lol what? This sub has hundreds of thousands of people on. Most of whom watch assumedly watch basketball. That"s how we end up with highlights from all the games and populated post game threads. This is a ridiculous generalization.

Edit: I watch basketball all the time, hell I"ve seen most of the Lakers games this season which was no cakewalk

湖蜜：哈哈哈，你說啥？這論壇里可是有著很多人的，大多數都自認為自己看了比賽，這也就是為什麼現在每場比賽都有集錦，以及賽後討論貼增多。這代人有點不可思議。

註：我從來都會去看比賽，真見鬼我看了這賽季幾乎所有的湖人比賽，這可沒你們想像的那麼容易。

[–]BulletsMachagoat13 797 指標 12小時前

You need stats and the eye test. Balance is important for everything in life.

Except *河蟹*e, you can never do enough of that shit.

你會同時需要數據和眼睛所看到的真實表現。生活中平衡對於任何事情都是非常重要的。

除了毒品，你永遠不會嘗夠那些玩意兒。

[–][MEM] Hamed Haddadifreudianchips 362 指標 12小時前

I"m torn. I"m a stats major and I love poring over advanced stats because I find it really interesting. But I don"t need PER or VORP or things like that to tell me who"s good and who"s not. I think stats are a good supplement but nothing beats watching the games

我感到很煎熬，我是個數據分析專業的學術，我喜歡全神貫注的研究高階數據，因為這很有意思。但是我不需要效率值或是可替代球員差值（VORP）這樣的東西去告訴我誰更好睡更差。我認為數據是一個非常好的補充，但是沒有任何事情比得上真正觀看比賽。

[–][POR] Clifford RobinsonSardinesGivePower 265 指標 12小時前

And there is a reason EVERY pro sports team uses advanced stats and actual scouts. You need both. If a person thinks one or the other should be gospel then that person is an idiot.

每支職業球隊都會同時使用高階數據和僱用球探，你兩者都需要。如果一個人認為某一方就是真理而不需要另一方的話，他就是個傻子。

[–]Warriorshelp_me_will 145 指標 11小時前

Actuary here. To my mind it just means that the stats aren"t advanced enough yet. Everything can be modeled.

實際上在這裡，對我來說只意味著現在這些數據還沒有達到足夠的高階，任何事情都可以被模型化。

[–]PacersXZTALVENARNZEGOMSAYT 813 指標 12小時前

Some people here think Kobe was never the best player in the league and I wonder if I lived in a different dimension at the time

有些人甚至覺得科比從來就不是聯盟里最棒的球員，我在懷疑在那時我是不是生活在另一個空間里。

[–]Westma103 50 指標 10小時前*

If that player keeps fucking up your team despite being "inefficient", you may not like him that much. Stats is the only thing these poor souls can get back to him.

如果一個球員一直能夠用「低效率」的方式摧毀你的球隊，你肯定不會太喜歡他。數據是那些可憐鬼們唯一能夠得到的去攻擊科比的東西。

[–]Lakerskoukies 36 指標 10小時前

The one thing stats don"t show with Kobe is the degree of difficulty on his shot selection and the number of defenders on him. 2 points is 2 points on a stat sheet, but doing an insane double clutch hangtime layup against prime Dwight Howard trying to block your shot? That doesn"t show up. Or making an off balance fadeaway over 3 defenders? You wouldn"t know unless you watched the game. But that gets counted the same as an open lay-up.

一件數據顯示不出來關於科比的事情就是，他投籃選擇的難度以及當時防守他的人數。在數據表上2分就只是2分，但是在面對巔峰霍華德時做出一記驚人的雙重懸空的關鍵上籃怎麼說？這一點都顯示不出來，或者面對三名防守者時命中一記失去平衡後的後仰跳投？你也不知道，除非你親自看了比賽，但是數據表中這種高難度進球和空位2分是被同樣計算的。

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