刺客認為歷史第一人是賈巴爾，39歲天勾是隊內得分籃板王什麼水平？

美國JRS之聲

刺客認為歷史第一人是賈巴爾，39歲天勾是隊內得分籃板王什麼水平？

"The greatest player ever to play the game... is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar" -- Isiah Thomas (self.nba)

「史上最偉大的籃球球員是...卡里姆-阿布杜爾-賈巴爾」——刺客托馬斯

所以刺客托馬斯（也就是「老托馬斯」，他對自己是這麼稱呼的）在2017年6月2號參加了《Undisputed》這檔節目——在節目中他表示，賈巴爾1971年第一次打總決賽， 生涯拿了很多冠軍，18年後還打了最後一次總決賽。

大家如何認為呢？

我剛好不同意他的說法...而且我70年代時就是個賈巴爾的鐵杆粉絲了。

但是我也認為在討論史上最偉大球員時，賈巴爾得到的認可也太少了。

對於我來說，很多對於GOAT的討論——這也低估了像拉塞爾和張伯倫這樣的傢伙——都與以下幾點有關：a.厚今簙古，b.比賽在不停進步的事實，c.不爭的事實——大個子們看起來就沒有那些偉大的側翼和射手們炫酷，以及d.「他們當時根本就沒有任何競爭」，因為當時的球隊更少一些。

（對於d這一項我想說——真的嗎？所以如果你把奧斯卡-羅伯特森，傑里-韋斯特，埃爾金-貝勒，哈爾-格里爾，約翰-哈夫利切克，比利-康寧漢姆，里克-巴里...以及其他的巨星們...把他們抱團變成3-4支偉大的球隊...然後讓拉塞爾和張伯倫在場上對決，就像死亡牢籠那樣...所以他們在當時就沒有競爭嗎？難道擁有像國王，籃網以及另外很多類似的無法真正競爭總冠軍的球隊會讓你的爭冠之路變得更加異常困難嗎？）

至於賈巴爾，只有在和魔術師聯手時，他才拿到了生涯中絕大多數的總冠軍戒指，確實是這樣。但是這同樣適用於喬丹和皮蓬（以及後來的羅德曼），勒布朗和他在熱火的三巨頭，以及回到騎士後另外的三巨頭。

就像我說的，我不同意刺客對於史上第一人的看法。

但是賈巴爾是不是在討論範圍之內呢？我們應該給他一些尊重。

So sayeth Isiah Thomas (the "old Isiah" as he calls himself) on the Undisputed show 6/2/17 --

As Isiah notes, Jabbar played in his first finals in 1971, and, many rings and 18 years later, played in his last.

What do you think?

I happen to disagree.... and I was a big Jabbar fan in the 1970s.

But I do think Jabbar is "way too left out of the discussion" when it comes to GOAT.

To me, a lot of the GOAT debate -- which also under-values guys like Russell and Chaimberlain -- has to do with a. recency bias, b. the fact that the game is constantly evolving, c. the look-at-this factor -- big men just don"t look as pretty and cool as the great wings and shooters, and d. the "they didn"t have any competition" because there were fewer teams canard.

(Re. item d -- Really? So you take Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, John Havlicek, Billy Cunningham, Rick Barry... and others... and compress them onto 3-4 great teams... and then put Russell and Wilt against one another like a fight-to-the-death cage match... and they had suspect competition? Does having the Sacramento Kings, the Brooklyn Nets, and a couple dozen other teams who, like them, cannot really compete for a title, make it so much harder to win one?)

As for Kareem, he won most of those rings only when teamed with Magic, true. Jordan and Pippen (and later Rodman). LeBron and Big 3 in Miami and Other Big 3 in Cleveland.

Like I say, don"t agree with Isiah about who"s #1.

But Kareem in the discussion? We should put some respekt on it.

[–]Cavaliers BandwagonWWLWLLL 508 指標 1 天前

Hard to argue against Kareem. In his early days, he had Shaq-like dominance. And in his later days, he was still the Lakers #1 scoring and rebounding option until his late 30s, which is insane.

There really should be a separate ranking of bigs vs swings because they affect the game so differently. Back when Kareem played, bigs were more valued. Now the perimeter rules and threeballs are marginalizing their importance.

很難去反對賈巴爾，在他生涯早期的時候，他有著沙克般的統治力。而等到了他的生涯晚期，他仍然是湖人得分和籃板的第一選擇，一直到他接近40歲時，這點非常可怕。

真的應該分別對大個子和側翼進行排名，因為他們影響比賽的方式差別很大。當賈巴爾打球的時候，大個子們得到的重視程度更高。而現在外線的規則以及三分的盛行則削弱了他們的重要性。

[–]LakersStealthRUs 157 指標 1 天前

Pretty much this. Someone could say Kareem was the best, and they wouldn"t be wrong. Someone else could say Jordan and also not be wrong.

很大程度上正如刺客所說，當某個人說賈巴爾是史上最棒的球員時，他們並沒有錯。另外的人也可以說喬丹，這當然也沒有錯。

[–]CelticsJaylenBGOAT 64 指標 1 天前

At this point you can"t really be wrong with about 3-4 guys as the GOAT. My issue comes in when people try and say that there is a factual GOAT when it"s a completely subjective thing depending on what you value most and how you look at various stats.

在現在這個點上，有3-4個球員真的可以被稱為是史上最偉大的球員，而且你不會錯。我的不滿在於人們努力想要選出真正的最偉大球員，因為這就是一個完全主觀的選擇，取決於你對哪方面最重視，以及你對很多不同數據的看法。

[–]EastPM_ME_UR_ASSES_GURLS 60 指標 1 天前

No. I had another account on here and argued KAJ was the GOAT and MJ was 1b and got downvoted to oblivion. I don"t know how 6-0 and getting knocked out earlier than the finals multiple times is better than 6-4 and actually being the second best team in the league. I don"t know how play 20 years is somehow a knock against him instead of being in his favor.

It depends on the thread and who says it. Now that Isiah said it, I"m sure it"ll be more accepted around here. But it wasn"t on my alternate account.

其實並不是這樣，我用這裡的另一個號爭論賈巴爾是史上最偉大球員，而喬丹是1b時，被滅的生活不能自理。我不知道總決賽6-0，但是生涯早期卻多次止步季後賽前幾輪的戰績是如何比總決賽6-4，而且實際上處在聯盟中第二好的球隊來的出色的。我不知道為什麼人們用20年的職業生涯來攻擊他，而不是把這作為他的一個優勢。

完全就是取決於帖子標題是什麼，以及是誰說的罷了。現在刺客這樣說了，我相信論壇里接受的人就會更多。但是顯然我另外一個號沒有得到這樣的待遇。

[–]datdarnjew 5 指標 1 天前

Could Kareem still be as dominant in today"s NBA?

賈巴爾是否仍然能夠統治現在的NBA呢？

[–]Cavaliers BandwagonWWLWLLL 28 指標 1 天前

He was basically a taller Anthony Davis with a better shot (no three range though). He was unguardable in the post. He would be the best player in the league.

他基本上就是個增高版的安東尼-戴維斯，同時有一手更好的籃子（儘管沒有三分）。他在低位是無法被防住的，他會是現在聯盟中最好的球員。

[–]LakersHollywoooooood 6 指標 1 天前

lol is this a real question

Fundamentally great, unstoppable shot, kept himself in great shape, great passer, great defender and rebounder.

Kareem would rule the day in any era he played. This is a dude that played against Wilt, McHale, Malone, Olajuwon, Parish, Rodman, etc, and balled the fuck out. I"m sure I"m forgetting people too. Lot of good bigs in the seventies and eighties.

哈哈哈，這真的是個問題嗎？

出色的基本功，無法防守的投籃，一直維持很好的身材，出色的傳球，頂尖的防守和籃板。

賈巴爾會統治任意一個他打球的年代，這傢伙可是和張伯倫，麥克海爾，馬龍，大夢，帕里什，羅德曼等等對抗過的，而且都特么的贏得了自己的地位。我很確信我還漏掉了一些人，七十到八十年代有著非常多出色的大個子球員。

[–]CelticsMexter-Dorgan 2 指標 1 天前

And then think of he played against the Warriors or small ball teams. Kareem on Zaza?? RIP

Kareem on Dray??

然後你就想想賈巴爾對抗勇士或者這些小球將會是什麼樣的情況吧，賈巴爾vs ZaZa？安息吧朋友。賈巴爾vs格林？？

[–]Warriorsd3pthchar93 5 指標 1 天前

The skyhook is the deadliest shot the NBA has ever seen. How do these Skyhooks taste?

天勾是NBA歷史上最致命的投籃方式，那麼給現在聯盟里的球隊嘗嘗那些天勾怎樣？

[–]Warriorslolathon234 198 指標 1 天前*

我覺得賈巴爾巔峰時在場上的影響力實際上要比喬丹更大，你不能忽視他的籃板和作為防守鐵閘的能力。

他用比喬丹更高的效率場均砍下34分，外加17籃板5助攻和5蓋帽聽起來怎麼樣？是的，除非你場均能夠達到45分，不然一個SG是不可能比上面這些數據的影響力還大的，抱歉。

天殺的新秀賈巴爾就把一直28勝聯盟擴軍的球隊變成了一支55勝的強隊。他常規賽場均29/15/4，作為一名新秀在季後賽里便以61%的真實命中率打出了29.4/13.9/3.4的表現。然後在生涯的第二個賽季里他就拿到了自己的第一個總冠軍，常規賽場均32/16/4，季後賽28/17/3，包括用5場比賽擊敗了包含張伯倫在內的那支宇宙湖人隊。在他的第三個賽季，賈巴爾則打出了場均35/17/5這樣的表現，並在季後賽里以場均34分擊敗了場均11分的張伯倫。

賈巴爾受到了極大的低估，因為他是被一支沒有任何籃球歷史的擴軍球隊選中，從而球迷基礎為零。而且他在湖人也從來沒有得到應得的認可，因為魔術師才是那個金童。

I think he was actually more impactful than Jordan at his peak. His rebounding and ability to anchor a defense can"t be disregarded.

34 ppg on higher efficiency than Jordan with 17 rpg 5 apg and 5 blocks? Ya, unless you"re averaging something like 45 ppg, a SG isn"t have more impact than that. Sorry.

Christ rookie Kareem turned a 28 win EXPANSION team into a 55 win team. He averaged 29/15/4 RS and 29.4/13.9/3.4 on 61 TS% as a rookie in the playoffs. And then he won a title in his 2nd season averaging 32/16/4 in the RS and 28/17/3 in the PO including beating Wilt and the juggernaut Lakers in 5 games. In his 3rd year, he put up 35/17/5 and destroyed Wilt in the playoffs averaging 34 ppg to 11 ppg.

He"s extremely underrated because he was drafted by an expansion team which had no basketball history and thus 0 fans. And he was never given due credit in LA because Magic was the golden boy.

[–]Warriorskevindlv 14 指標 1 天前

Kareem definitely has a case for GOAT. Peak, longevity, All-NBAs, MVPs, Finals appearances and wins, offense/defense. I"m not saying he is, just that he has a great case.

顯然賈巴爾有資格去成為史上最偉大的球員，在巔峰能力，生涯長度，最佳陣容次數，MVP個數，總決賽次數以及勝場數，進攻/防守這些方面他都非常出色。我並不是說他就是，但是他絕對很有理由成為GOAT。

[–]CelticsMemeForce1 3 指標 22小時前*

The man started 74 games and averaged double digit points at 41 years old.

He averaged over 20 ppg at 38. Let that sink in, defenders couldn"t hold him to less than 20 ppg until he was 39 years old. He didn"t have a season UNDER 27 ppg until he was already an 8th year veteran. He was only held below 50% FGs once, at age 41, and he still shot a respectable 47%.

That doesn"t even mention his value as a rebounder, defender or passer.

Guys like MJ and Shaq can make a case being the most dominant in their prime, and even then Kareem is firmly in the discussion, but if we"re talking longevity and consistent excellence over the course of their career no one is touching Kareem.

這傢伙在他41歲的時候還首發了74場比賽，並場均得分上雙。

他在38歲的時候場均超過了20分，就先不管這些，直到賈巴爾39歲之前，防守者都無法把他限制在20分之內。在他生涯早期，他從來沒有單賽季場均得分低於27分過，直到他已經是個8年的老兵後。整個生涯賈巴爾只有一個賽季的命中率低於50%，那就是他41歲的時候，而且他仍然打出了相當高的47%的命中率。

這還都沒有提到他作為一個籃板手，防守者或者傳球手的價值。

像喬丹和沙克這樣的球員，你可以說他們巔峰時是最具統治力的球員，就算是這樣賈巴爾也仍然在討論範圍內，但是如果我們談論的是生涯長度，以及生涯中出色表現持久的程度的話，沒人能趕得上賈巴爾。

[–]Spursheyyitsmike 23 指標 1 天前*

但是對於喬丹有一點大家都忘了提，甚至都沒有去細想，那就是他對NBA做出的貢獻。

能被歷史上所有球員所分享的，不管是處於哪個年代，比賽的進步如何，數據，總冠軍等等...便是你對NBA和它的文化帶來的影響。

所有偉大的球員顯然都對比賽產生了深遠的影響，但是我老實說，沒有任何人比喬丹做的更出色，他對於NBA文化產生的影響，不僅僅是在美國，在全世界內都非常的令人震驚。因為喬丹，NBA才成為了體育界的巨頭。無數的人選擇打籃球就是因為他們想要「和邁克一樣」。

我不認為歷史上有任何一個球員比喬丹的影響還大，並比喬丹激勵了更多的孩子/人們，讓他們更加的熱愛籃球。這本身，就是個非常難以達到的「數據」，而喬丹出色的完成了這一點。

當然，沒有相當偉大的成就，你是無法產生強大的影響的...所以你們看重他的戒指，數據，MVP，榮譽等等，你們拿著成就簿，乾淨的發亮，裝滿著這位球員的所有成就和個性。對於我來說，這就是喬丹是歷史第一人的原因。

The thing that so many people forget to mention or even think about is what MJ did for the NBA. The one attribute that can be universally shared by every player in history regardless of era, evolution of the game, stats, rings, etc ....is the impact you brought to the NBA and its culture.

All the greats have definitely impacted the game, but in my honest opinion, no other player has done it better than MJ. The impact he had on the culture, not just in the US, but also internationally was astounding. The NBA became a juggernaut of a sport because of MJ. So many people picked up a basketball and wanted to be "Like Mike".

I don"t believe any other player in history made a bigger impact and inspired so many kids/people to love the game of basketball more than MJ. This in itself, is a "stat" that is very difficult to achieve, and MJ did it masterfully.

Of course, you can"t make really make a strong impact without respectable accomplishments.. so you factor in his rings, stats, MVPs, accolades, etc and you have the storybook, squeeky clean, full package of a NBA player and person. To me, this is why MJ is the GOAT.

[–][LAL] D"Angelo RussellHolyRomanPrince 43 指標 1 天前

If you say Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Lebron or KAJ you can make an argument.

如果你說拉塞爾，張伯倫，喬丹，勒布朗或者賈巴爾是歷史第一人的話，我覺得都說得通。

[–]CelticsDi0nysus 10 指標 1 天前

That"s a great top 5 imo, in no particular order.

在我心中這就是歷史前5，排名不做先後。

[–]Averagepunpun 2 指標 21小時前

It"s hard to compare players at different positions. The GOAT list should be the best player at each position. 1-Magic Johnson 2-Michael Jordan 3-Lebron James 4-Tim Duncan 5-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

你很難去比較不同位置上的球員。歷史最偉大球員這個排名應該是各個位置上最偉大的球員。1號位——魔術師，2號位——喬丹，3號位——勒布朗，4號位——鄧肯，5號位——賈巴爾。

[–]gfhrtp_ 7 指標 1 天前

One factor that prevents Kareem from being discussed as often is that he wasn"t as popular off the court as Jordan, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Kobe etc. For that reason I think he"s sometimes overlooked. Well liked players tend to have elevated status. Similarly I think Isiah Thomas sometimes wasn"t historically appreciated because of dislike of those Pistons teams

一個讓賈巴爾沒能得到很多討論的因素便是，他在場下沒有喬丹，魔術師，伯德，勒布朗，科比等等這些人這麼受歡迎。對此我覺得有時候他被忽視了，我們喜歡擁有崇高地位的球員。類似的，站在歷史的角度，我覺得刺客托馬斯有時候也沒有得到足夠的認可，因為大家對壞小子軍團的討厭。

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